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T2 ammo - totally and utterly shit

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Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:08:00 - [1] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 18/08/2008 21:07:54 Originally by: Butter Dog nearly all T2 ammo has little practical purpose (aside from Barrage, Null, and the long-range sniping ammo) thanks to faction ammo. Hail M is also useful but yes T2 ammo needs a makeover.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:01:00 - [2] Originally by: AstroPhobic Hail is only useful (in a few, limited situations) because EMP sucks. That is not my experiance - perhaps it is a question of combat style. I have fought in heaps of up close slug fests where I'm shooting at multi-webbed BC's and BS's at about 1k range. That makes Hail M good in my books. Perhaps the best thing about Hail M is that it is good in combats that really matter. For almost every gank I'll have Barrage or Faction EMP fit and it will help me get higher on the killmail. Seeing as we were going to win with no losses anyway that doesn't matter much. Hail M is good in those hard fought, point blank range, fights that rock and really matter.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:06:00 - [3] Originally by: murder one Void, Hail etc. needs about 30-40% DPS increase to make it worth it. That sure would be a good way of stopping people flying other races - unless of course you have some completely OTT buffs to propose for them to.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:16:00 - [4] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Yakov Draken Originally by: AstroPhobic Hail is only useful (in a few, limited situations) because EMP sucks. That is not my experiance - perhaps it is a question of combat style. I have fought in heaps of up close slug fests where I'm shooting at multi-webbed BC's and BS's at about 1k range. That makes Hail M good in my books. Perhaps the best thing about Hail M is that it is good in combats that really matter. For almost every gank I'll have Barrage or Faction EMP fit and it will help me get higher on the killmail. Seeing as we were going to win with no losses anyway that doesn't matter much. Hail M is good in those hard fought, point blank range, fights that rock and really matter. Your personal experiences don't interest me. Numbers don't lie, people are biased. So I guess you have checked the numbers? You see you are wrong - just plain simple wrong. Hail M does more than any other M proj ammo. So why is it bad in situations where its drawbacks don't matter? The numbers say it is good so what are you tripping on?
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Cpt Branko Tbh, if I had RF Fusion M doing roughly the equivalent DPS of Hail M (like CN AM vs Void), I'd never ever load Hail M. You load Hail out of necessity. Other races can just use faction ammo ;) What is it about you guys and Hail M? On SHC people tell cheerful stories about pwning people with Hail M while you say it is only worth using because RF Fusion is worse. Well of course - Hail M is good because it is better than the alternative in a given situation. You really don't want to like Hail.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:31:00 - [6] Originally by: AstroPhobic There is where I point back to the thing you quote in the first place - in very few situations.:] I never said in very few situation - I said Hail was useful in up close slugfests which we could lose. ie The important fights. You arn't reading what I'm writing Astro, Originally by: AstroPhobic IE, you're doing more damage in the majority of situations with RF emp due to tracking. Fitting a double web and loading hail does nothing more that gimp yourself un-necessarily.:] Who is fitting a dbl web? I'm in a gang more often than not. Contrary to some peoples beliefs solo ships performance is fairly irrelevant most of the time. There is always a bigger blob and when there is only one of you that is never more true. Btw how bad do your think Hail M's tracking is? Medium AC's are designed to track cruisers - they track webbed BC's/BS's just fine with Hail fit. You don't need dbl webs. So no you are not doing more damage with Faction EMP at point blank range in gang fights due to tracking. Originally by: AstroPhobic Let your playstyle determine your ammo, not the other way around. [:roll] That is exactly what I'm doing. The ammo types I fit are based on the types of combats I get in and I choose what ammo type to load depending on what sort of fight it is going to be.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Cpt Branko I don't like Hail. I use it (fairly often, for the fights which, as you said, actually count) out of neccesity. Does it melt people's faces? Well, yes, in the correct circumstances. Well there ya go - that wasn't so hard. Hail M melts faces in the combats that really matter. You can dislike it as much as you want so long as we have that clear.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:54:00 - [8] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 02:54:46 Originally by: AstroPhobic Chances are in a gang fight you're not within hugging distance, . . . You do for hail to do more DPS. Like I said earlier, if you're sitting still 2km away from a webbed target, you've already disadvantaged yourself from your next target or wasted time switching ammo. . . . Next time pvp is a big hug fest, you let me know. Just letting you know - non nano/sniper pvp in Eve is generally a big hug fest. Most of the significant fights I've been in have been point blank range hug fests around undock points or gates. Most of the time the primary, secondary, and tertiary are all about 1-3km away. Sure some peopel like Nano's but my corp likes its' remote reps and we generally find that any serious non-nano/sniper opposition also likes their remote reps. Sure Hail hurts in combats where the enemy ships are scattered around but if they arn't nano's that simply means they arn't in RR range thus they die easy. Remote reps are pwnsauce and this shapes much of Eve's non-nano/sniper combat. Btw do you pvp? I'm just asking because I've pvped alot in Eve (you can check my corps killboard) and when I talk with Cpt Branko it is like we are talking about the same thing. I know he is a pvper. When I'm talking to you I don't get any clear impression you know much about real fights.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 03:28:00 - [9] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 03:29:38 Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 03:28:39 Originally by: AstroPhobic See, the funny thing is, it seems to me like you just look at EFT dps and say OK - this one's better. You don't realize that you have tracking issues. You dont realize that at 10km you're better off with barrage. You probably don't know a lot of things like hit quality scales linearly with falloff. A lot of this is tough to tell ingame, and one who simply plays the game and ignores forums/discussions would probably never know.:] Which is why from the moment I joined Eve I read forums and searched for info. This lead me to Scrap Heap challenge which is by far the best place to go for info on Minmatar ships. I take the advice of the SHC vets seriously and this lead me to rate Hail M. On top of this theoretical knowledge I have flown the Hurricane more than any other ship. TOW is a very small corp and since we fly together alot it is easy to compare relative damage across killmails and see who really is doing the most damage. We know each others skills and implants plus a decent percentage are operating at close to all lvl 5. It becomes fairly easy to see how much tracking etc matters. I know from experiance that the tracking mod on Hail L is awful and I know the theoretical reason why - it is a BS gun with a tracking minus trying to track BS' and BC's. Hail M on the other hand is generally being shot at a BC or BS. Originally by: AstroPhobic If you're moving at 150m/s and your target is 90% webbed - YOU WILL have tracking issues with hail. I don't care if you say you hit fine - or you think you hit fine - you don't. Perhaps you should take a look at the tracking formula. I don't move at 150m/s relative to my opponent in combat. I sit stationary at 1k when shooting Hail M. It is not about looking at formula's it is about doing it right in practice. Originally by: AstroPhobic Hail has uses. Gang fights is not one of them. Any sort of gang engagement is NOT a 5km bubble of love. You are so wrong. Do you know how remote reps work? Do you realise that when people undock or warp to a gate they are bunched up? Sure some combats are spread out and when your covert calls you in you'll know that and fit barrage. If the enemy gang is bunched around a gate just fit Hail and pwn face.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 04:15:00 - [10] Originally by: AstroPhobic Don't talk to me like I'm dumb. I have treated you with somewhat respect, I'd advise you to do the same I thought you started talking to me like I was an idiot awhile back then pulled back. I try to show respect though obviously I haven't been completely succesful. Originally by: AstroPhobic 2. If you're sitting stationary from a target at 1km, that's not a gang fight, that's a gank. I have been in many fights sitting at 1k or so from my target - what am I supposed to be doing instead? Why shouldn't people sit at 1k from the target in a gang fight? In most ganks the target is coming through a gate and I fit Barrage/EMP and they die not long after I get to optimal range. That is a gank. In a larger short range fight it goes on longer and you have plenty of time to pwn with short range ammo. Originally by: AstroPhobic 3. I don't know what kind of pvp you do in close range ships, . That is the problem and it is hard to get around. Remote rep gangs completely destroy non remote rep gangs in no-nano/sniper warfare - ignoring cap warfare. To remote rep you have to be close together. But thats just the beginning. Originally by: AstroPhobic undock games doesn't count as the majority of my pvp. Nice little dig there. When we travel we move together. When we warp we warp as a group. When we jump through a gate we do it together. When our scouts find targets at a safe spot they arrange a warp in point - "go to the sun and warp to me at 20k's" so we drop right on top of our prey - together. Most competent gangs do this so our targets are generally together. Of course if the targets are spread out at a safe spot due to different align speeds we can just drop in on a couple that have got split off and kill them - that is why you keep together. My point is that in most situations in pvp the gang is in a tight group and landing right on top of people isn't hard. One of the times it is tricky to stay together is jumping through a gate to attack someone on the other side. Obviously we start spread out so the first thing to do is make for the gate at full speed. With remote repping it really helps to be in jump range of the gate so that if you are primaried you can de-aggro and jump through the gate then return to the fight. Sometimes a ship or two will get webbed off the gate so either we rep them from the gate or bump them back to the gate. In short we fight as a tight nit group. Btw belittling undock combat is popular in Eve but lets looks at some examples. 1. We are sitting in Iges and a gang of 3 Church RR BS's are sitting off our station undock with another BS at a safe aligned for the others. When we have enough people online we undock our plated mega with slaves first to take the aggro and then the rest of the gang - couple more BS's and a couple of BC's all with RR's. We kill all but one of them in the resulting slug fest for no loss. It was a damn fun fight with a great build up. 2. We undock on a gang of 5(?) Malicious Intentions' BS's camping us in Dastryns and proceed to rip into them. They cyno a carrier in and we lose one BS while the rest of us dock up. Not such a good fight but they were happy and once again a great build-up. 3. We got war decced by an empire merc corp. We undock gank their scout who comes to check us out and they cancel the war deck realising we are all flashy. They stick a plated Domi off our undock with 9-10 more RR BS's sitting in Stacmon on the Dastryns gate. We fit for gank plus plates and some RR and undock with a mixed BS/BC gang of 5-6. Their Domi pops just as they arrive at the station with the gang. We're already MWDing back over the top of the station and dock in safety hearts pounding. Undock combat can be varied and fun. I can give plenty of examples of close range combats fought at gates but I don't want to bore.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 04:35:00 - [11] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 04:35:38 Originally by: murder one Still confused. EMP's damage type is 100% favorable. EM is the lowest resist on about 60% of my ships. Two things. 1. EMP does almost half EMP, plenty of EXP and some kinetic 2. EM is the highest resist on armor tanks using EANM's - this is a very popular setup. Resists of around 85% vs EM are fairly common.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 06:25:00 - [12] Originally by: murder one Ahh. Now I get it. Assuming that your perceptions are that of the general player base at large (assuming a lot I'm sure) then it makes sense to me why people would think that EMP is a poor choice for damage type.. "Assumming a lot" is fine except at the end of your post where you pwn me with your assumptions. EMP is a fantastic ammo type and this is well understood by most players. RF EMP is tasty stuff and I wouldn't fly without it. My three favourite matar M ammo types are (in order): 1. Barrrage M - luv it plus its' L version 2. RF EMP M - You can fit this for any fight you don't want to fit Barrage on and you won't come out bad as it has mixed damage types and high base damage. 3. Hail M - good for Hurricanes when used in the close up pwn face role vs armor tankers. Remember it is a gank ship. Originally by: murder one Most of the . . . armor tanks that I come across these days have EM as the lowest resist, or nearly as low as explosive. Can't say there are many tanks with 3 resists slots that I would fit 3x Active hardeners on compared to 2xEANM's and a DCU. With good compensation skills, and especially with the modestly priced (for BS fittings) Amarr Navy EANM's, it is just a better tank on top of not needing to be turned on. As for fitting more than 4 resist module - sure on a Myrm or Domi but I'd much rather have more gank mods/plates on most things. Bottomline is winning the hard fights. For me those (excluding Nano/Recon) have been versus other pvp corps who fly alot of Mega's, Typhoons, Armageddons, Tempests and Abaddons. These geenrally fit a EANM/DCU tanks. So I'd rather load Hail M in a Hurricane for that sort of fight, or RF Fusion in a Tempest, though RF EMP is a decent option in any situation it has the range for. Cause RF EMP rocks. No argument there sorry. Originally by: murder one [Thanks for trying however.

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